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2/4/2010
How much will Wisconsin pay for the romance of trains?
This high-speed rail business is way, way too expensive, for way too little impact. Yes, it’s time to look a gift horse in the mouth. (In my graduate B-school days, it was a very common thing for Peter Drucker to say to his classes – always look a gift horse in the mouth.)
A boondoggle of epic proportions. This is nuts. Who told Jim Doyle he could go out and buy a couple of railroad cars, much less a bunch of track, much less find the cash to maintain those trains and tracks on into the millenia? I just don’t get it.
I respect Tom Still, president of the Wisconsin Technology Council. He’s well thought-out and not a flame-thrower. But on this one, he might not be registering with what's reality.
It’s about time Wisconsin gets a good chunk of federal money, Still says, because Wisconsin has long been a tax donor state.
“For the better part of the past 50 years Wisconsin has been a tax donor state. And that means that our taxpayers send more federal tax dollars to Washington than they receive in return.”
The expensive project is expected to create 13 thousand jobs. And, Still says, high speed rail could help foster high-tech collaboration between scientists, investors and businessmen from within the so-called IQ corridor region, which extends from Chicago through Wisconsin into Minnesota. That would better put our state in line with both coasts and the rest of the world.
Oh yeah, those are really good reasons. So we can get more federal tax dollars. So we can incur millions and millions more capital and operating expenses most assuredly the feds won’t be covering. And so scientists and investors can ride back and forth? What?
Here, Still lays out 5 reasons why Wisconsin should be thrilled about this $810 million. None of them hold adequate billion-dollar water for me.
Already, mayors are getting in line for extra money to build extra stations, much less considering whether the planned stops will make the system effective in the first place. Who is it that knows how much this whole thing is going to cost?
Time to re-read Patrick McIlheran. Last August he was cranked up about these really high-speed train fanatics. He talks about some huge numbers, like $38 million a mile - and he counters the “freeways are subsidized too” argument.
Yes, well, freeways cost a fortune, too: The state's twice-a-century rebuild of I-94 southward is $2 billion.
But freeways carry many more people. Even in the European Union, rife with 200-mph trains and $5-a-gallon gas, cars carry 76% of passenger travel, trains 5.8%. That's down from 8% since 1980, even as Europe built irresistible trains. Cars' share is up.
And freeways bring in paying customers. Cars pay more in fuel and other taxes than is spent on building and keeping highways. The feds reckoned in 2004 that for every 1,000 miles traveled, cars paid $1.79 more in taxes than their roads consumed in public money.
Passenger trains took in $210 of net subsidy for every 1,000 passenger miles, that report found. While air-travel taxes, other economists say, cover the costs of airports and traffic control, fares don't cover trains' operating costs, much less the cost of tracks.
Paddy Mac info that really struck a cord with me was that rail travel isn’t all that green. Now, this (May, 2008) was a discussion of “light rail” vs. the Fed-funded Doyle fetish of regular ol’ rail cars (or in the new lingo – “high-speed rail”), but they surely must be similar situations.
Light rail in practice uses about as much energy to move a passenger a mile as does your average car, reports transit expert Randal O'Toole of the Cato Institute, the libertarian think tank. When it comes to carbon dioxide per passenger mile, light rail beats the average car only in some cities - mainly where electricity doesn't come from coal or oil. Nearly everywhere, you put out less carbon by driving a Prius than by taking the train.
This isn't what most people expect. Still, O'Toole, a longtime critic of light rail, confined himself to data from federal transit and energy agencies. When I checked with head researcher Steven Polzin at the transit-friendly National Center for Transit Research, he said the numbers were good and the conclusion true. Most people assume rail is far more efficient, "but the empirical data isn't very compelling," he said.
Read the whole thing. It’s good stuff.
Here’s more current info (2/2/10) for the inquiring mind on this rail business:
Is Obama spending rail monies wisely? The experts differ. Widely. Thoughtful responses. The guys concerned about spending inefficiently and/or ineffectively win the day for me.
This is a huge decision – I’ve got my ears cocked to learn how/when we plain old citizens can learn more and weigh in.
Jo Egelhoff, FoxPolitics.net
COMMENTS
The federal study cited (cars pay $1.79 more) includes ONLY federal expenditures for highways - does not include any town, county, municipal or state costs for construction or maint. From page 6: "The current analysis reflects federal revenue and expenditure data only. An analysis including state and local revenue and expenditure data may show different results and would raise different issues of revenue and expenditure definition." The amount local governments spend on roads is not insignificant
Kevin E (Thu Feb 04 06:45:18 2010)
True that the report only covered the Federal portion, but the State taxes are also significantly higher that the Federal portion.
I'd venture that if a study is performed on the State level, that a similar value would be found.
Jay Oestreich (Thu Feb 04 08:18:42 2010)
On the whole I am more prone to oppose than support light rail...at the moment. But think about the possibilities.
1. Jobs. Right now our tax dollars are paying for unemployment and extended unemployment benefits. What do we realize at the end of the day for these tax dollars?
2. Non-exportable jobs. Unlike many service or manufacturing jobs, construction jobs can't be sent overseas. Local people primarily will get the jobs.
3. Tangible results. There are realistic concerns about the value of light rail, yet there will be a physical product at the end of the process. Unlike money for banks to loan (which they don't), for education (which yields too many financial advisors, self-health assessors, drug company marketers, political lobbyists and website designers) or congressional travel (junkets overseas), at least light rail has some prospect of real social value.
4. Precedent. Read the media stories written right after then-President Eisenhower proposed the interstate highway system. Deja vu! One could almost substitute the words "light rail" for "interstate highways" and we have nearly the same critcisms being voiced today.
Only the federal government can take on a project of this scope and complexity, so drop the private business arguments.
This being said the government has a propensity to run up costs, screw up schedules, create numerous unintended consequences, and foster graft. Sometimes the wise course is not opposition but qualified support. If light rail is going to happen, let's put our energy into reducing government's propensities and enhancing the positive benefits. Tax dollars are going into a heck of a lot worse places.
Dennis (Thu Feb 04 10:31:21 2010)
My question is simple?
Will there be an adequate number of riders? With prices as they are today I am assuming that it would be as cheap or cheaper to drive. And you can drive without being on a trians time schedule.
Sounds like buying a pig in a poke.
David (Thu Feb 04 10:42:52 2010)
You have it, where is the business model?, how many people, paying what price to go where.
Lets have someone explain the jobs?, Who is doing what, where and when.
Present technology, has steel rail laid by a machine, a miles of track is laid at a time... we will not need gandy dancers pounding spikes ( oh for sure they will be golden if they were).
And What of the present AMTRAC, does that go away? What of their employees, do they go away....
I think that $800 million can be used for something more worth while then this...
This is truly, government run amuck.... ah what the heck, our children and grandchildren don't need a future.
Good Luck America!
Rick WE (Thu Feb 04 13:31:55 2010)
Last summer I considered a rail trip to get me to Washington State. I also considered flying. Train fare was more expensive than flying and took 44 hours to get me there versus 6 hours by plane, airport time included. Either way I needed to rent a car when I got there so there were no time or dollar savings to be had on the train.
Mike (Thu Feb 04 14:20:07 2010)
The issue is very complex. Lets be sure to include all costs for cars and trains including externalized costs. I personally don't think trains are viable in the low density Midwest. Bos/wash corridor, yes. LA to Sanfrancisco or San Diego, yes. Chicago to Minneapolis via Madison? highly questionable (that is of course unless gas does go to $8.00 per gallon in present value)
dave allen (Thu Feb 04 15:56:36 2010)
Dave has the right answers. The Erie canal was a great step in travel--but it did not last long. The Pony Express was great for mail.
In the Midwest a train is not viable in my mind.
david (Thu Feb 04 18:42:12 2010)
David,
just a little historical correction. The Erie Canal had more impact on this country than the interstate highway and arguably more than the transcontinental railroad. This is because it opened up the northwest territories (Ohio, Michigan etc) to settlement because settlers didn't have to move through the Cumberland gap or past French controlled Louisiana. Without the Erie canal it is possible that the westward expansion would have stalled for decades. In short it wasn't for the pleasure of travel it was a vital workhorse. The price to transport 100 lbs of flour dropped by 90% when the canal opened. However, after the canal became uneconomical for commerce (after about 100 years) it became gradually disentangled from commerce and used mostly for recreation. It is still used today and you can travel from NYC through the Erie (commencing at the Mohawk River/Hudson River junction) the barge canal (near Utica) to Lake Ontario and from there to Appleton via the Great Lakes, Green Bay and the Fox River (if locks on the Fox are operable). Sorry for the lecture but i was brought up near the Erie and have spend many memorable Summer days on it. Your point however that the pony express etc succumb to other technologies (and the Erie did after a hundred years) is well taken. If high speed passenger travel had the economic impact to the Midwest that the Erie Canal did to New York, I'd fight for it in a heartbeat. But of course, it doesn't.
dave allen (Thu Feb 04 19:44:12 2010)
Why would Doyle want to do this? There has been a lot of talk around the state that Doyle has purchased railroad stations for as low as 10 cents on the dollar from the State of Wisconsin and now obviously, if he turns these into usable stations, he stands to be one of the only beneficiaries of all of this and perhaps become a multi-millionaire if not a billionaire, in a short time, all at the expense of Wisconsin taxpayers! Aren't there laws against things like this??? Perhaps someone should consider legal action against Doyle!!!!
Bruce & Linda Meiers (Thu Feb 04 21:37:09 2010)
Bruce, Are you accusing the governor of personally profiting from the purchase (if true) of rail stations? That is a very serious charge and I hope you have some serious facts behind your statement.
please clarify. Also, having grown up in the east i can tell you that high speed rail has very little to do with older rail stations.
dave allen (Thu Feb 04 22:10:09 2010)
I have two related comments:
First I strongly believe that rail should concentrate on moving freight not people. There is no local infrastructure in place to move people from the rail stations to their final destination once they do get to a city so these costs must be factored in.
Second, on the car issue I have been asking the question for two years regarding electric cars. Who will pay for our roads if we cannot collect a road useage tax (gas tax) from those electric cars. Do they get a free ride? I have written to various groups connected to this issue and have yet to get a single reply. To me ultra high effiecncey gasoline and natural gas powered cars are the way to go for a long time to come.
John Brantmeier (Fri Feb 05 07:09:48 2010)
Not sure how many of the respondents to this commentary live in urban areas. Mass transit is increasingly a necessity to folks who are "boxed in tight" in our cities (the majority of our citizens). Owning and operating an automobile is becoming less attractive every day for urbanites.
O.K. so I live in a city and want to visit my family/friends in a distant location. Wow, a fast train ride at a reasonable cost.
Acquaintances on the East Coast love the Washington-New York-Boston AmTrak.
Wisconsin is not very fertile ground for a big investment in rail. But people need to come to our cities and through our state. Having some semblance of a rail option is better than being passed by once more.
Dennis (Fri Feb 05 10:02:36 2010)
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