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11/19/2010
Should Fox Valley send millions to Milwaukee for a train?
In its milquetoast analysis last week, the Sheboygan Press tells everyone to take a deep breath, have patience and be reasonable.
But this project has become so politicized that any talk about benefits has been overwhelmed by political arguments. We wish this weren't the case because it will become increasingly difficult to change the mind of skeptics.
It’s the Sheboygan Press that must pause – and take a look at the huge cost of any new underutilized rail line in southern Wisconsin and more importantly, the huge ongoing sucking sound heard, siphoning still more dollars from hardworking central Wisconsin folks to Milwaukee and Madison.
And Manitowoc – what is it with these guys breathing the frosty Lake Michigan air? Every retreaded overused argument.
What is the governor-elect willing to forego with his line-in-the-sand stance? In a word, jobs. Construction employment on the line was projected to peak at 4,732 jobs in 2012, with 55 permanent jobs to operate and maintain trains, stations and tracks.
….There are many good reasons to proceed with the rail line. It is not a "boondoggle," as Walker writes in his letter to the president.
Expansion of high-speed rail makes sense and should become one of the major components of Wisconsin's future economic development.
Ok. Anyway you look at it, those are expensive jobs. $14,727,000 for each full time job created. Wow, wow, wow. Or if you want to be charitable, add in those temporary construction jobs – it’s still $169,200 of your tax money and mine to create those jobs. Well, that’s not considering the $7.5M in taxpayer subsidies it will take every single year to run the darn train.
And from the Oshkosh Northwestern? More blather.
The progression of the debate is a Keaton-like comedy. Credit former Gov. Tommy Thompson for making Wisconsinites skeptical about rail open to the idea, even grandiose dreams in the late 1990s to extend passenger trains from Milwaukee through Oshkosh to Green Bay.... What's absent on the state and federal levels is a balanced transportation plan with provisions to get Americans moving on rails, runways and roads.
…. The Final Thought: Governor-elect Scott Walker needs to remain focused on improving Wisconsin's economy, not a single high-speed rail project.
I haven’t seen an editorial on the subject from the Appleton Post-Crescent or the Green Bay Press Gazette. Good. (Did I miss it?) It’s time for one of these editorial boards in the Fox Valley and environs to represent its readers – and fiscal sense. Leave it to Milwaukeean Patrick McIlheran to lay it all out.
The proposed train [is] a rallying point for the left's approach to development, best described as "the good old New Deal." Notice the protest the other day of unions and social-justice groups insisting that Wisconsin must build a train because the factory that's outfitting the cars' interiors is Milwaukee's best hope for jobs.
.... The ralliers were saying that only vast spending by government can save Milwaukee. Decades of government spending already have left that neighborhood crime-ridden, dependent, ill-educated and saddled with a hostile, costly business climate. If more of the same is Milwaukee's great hope, the city is toast.
Walker won office in part by saying this notion - that growth comes from government - is perverse. He proposed a more sustainable state, starting with not building the first segment of a vast, costly train system.
…. The primary [question is] whether the state could say no to a train that duplicates existing alternatives and that backers continue to sell, one, on the grounds that hip young people might like it and, two, by saying "modern" a lot about a technology perfected in approximately 1964.
Can we resist, in other words, magical thinking, social engineering and envy? So far, yes. By comparison, just not spending money is simple.
Fox Valley, what say you?
Jo Egelhoff, FoxPolitics.net
COMMENTS
Go, JO! Instead of leading, Barack Obama is trying to BUY a legacy. And dazzled by dollar signs, his mesmerized minions keep chanting, “High-Speed Rail never fail, High-Speed Rail never fail.” But, like Rowdy Roddy Piper, you and PattyMac and Gov. Walker keep scrapping to get Keith David to put on the sunglasses.
The Allusionist (Fri Nov 19 08:24:35 2010)
The train is a stupid, obsolete idea. But even now California and NY are clamoring for our $810M of our share of the taxpayer money. So let's just pay the $100M to get out of this and walk away from it. Hell, that money went to jobs didn't it?
Jack Lohman (Fri Nov 19 08:54:25 2010)
>>>Ok. Anyway you look at it, those are expensive jobs. $14,727,000 for each full time job created. Wow, wow, wow. Or if you want to be charitable, add in those temporary construction jobs – it’s still $169,200 of your tax money and mine to create those jobs.<<<
That tax money would pay for jobs as well as material to build the rail and the railcars to go on it. That money then ends up out in the economy, paying for other jobs, a multiplier effect. Taxes are then collected on all that new economic activity.
What would you have said back when the interstate system was proposed? We don't need it, too expensive, OMG we will have to maintain it?
You pointed out that a lot of others, including conservatives think Walker should reconsider this.
Perhaps you should reconsider it too.
Dean Weichmann (Fri Nov 19 09:32:53 2010)
It never ceases to amaze me that people actually think that the money from Washington is FREE. It is not..it is money that the Fed has collected from every taxpayer then taken their "cut" as handling fees then dole back out. The high speed train does not appear to be a good investment of our local tax dollars. After the Federal money evaporates, we'll be left with the maintenance expenses and subsidies to keep running. It is still up for debate how many people would really utilize the train. Most of us would rather travel in our personal cars in our time schedule.
That said, I question validity of the statement in the press that the portion of the rail line from MKE to Madison is really going to be the missing link in the train from Chicago to Mnpls?
bhm (Fri Nov 19 14:57:52 2010)
>>>It never ceases to amaze me that people actually think that the money from Washington is FREE. It is not..<<<
Do you think that tax money just disappears down a black hole? Money is not sacred, it is just a means of improving commerce.
Right now, we are in the midst of a recession. The economy is not moving, we are close to deflation, unemployment is high and may get worse. Government stimulus, fiscal and monetary, is the only way to improve the situation. The stimulus that was implemented was too small and was offset by cutting aid to states, thus it was no stimulus at all.
Long term interest rates are very low so investments in infrastucture have low costs.
Dean Weichmann (Fri Nov 19 15:30:00 2010)
Population of Wisconsin;
about 6 million
Rail stimulus per person, about $140.
Population of US;
about 300 million'
Wisconsin ail stimulus per person, about $2.70
Dean Weichmann (Fri Nov 19 18:18:22 2010)
Geez Dean, that's a great reason to build a train.
Jo (Fri Nov 19 22:01:54 2010)
>>>What would you have said back when the interstate system was proposed? We don't need it, too expensive, OMG we will have to maintain it?<<<
I would have said, "Let's go for it!"
The obvious reason being that it was evident that people would use the darned thing, unlike the train and it would be available to all, again, unlike the train.
If the passesnger train were viable some smart entrepreneur would have built a railroad line. Such is not the case because it isn't viable. It would be subsidized forever. It costs way too much to ride it so the gov. would have to cut fares time after time leaving more and more cost differences to be borne by the taxpayer. It only goes to the outskirts of Madison. It isn't high speed which was one of the initial talking points for burdening Wisconsin taxpayers with it.
It's a party venue for wealthy people by a governor who has no conception that taxes aren't just paid by millionaires who, as far as I can tell, aren't asking for the darned thing.
There is no place for lower income or even lower middle income people on the Boondoggle Choo-Choo.
Cut the losses on this piece of idiocy and cut the budget!
C. R. Stevenson (Sat Nov 20 00:29:59 2010)
>>>If the passesnger train were viable some smart entrepreneur would have built a railroad line.<<<
Sure...just like roads and airports are now.
>>>It's a party venue for wealthy people<<<
Uh-huh...right.
Trains are not cars, nor are they airplanes. Obviously trains are limited to stops at stations much like aircraft are limited to airports. This makes them both better adapted for longer distance travel. Opposition to rail centers on it's comparison to cars.
Rail would use far less fuel than either. One has to be constantly alert when driving a car or you could kill yourself or others. A rail trip would be far more relaxing.
Dean Weichmann (Sat Nov 20 05:11:02 2010)
Population of Wisconsin;
about 6 million
Rail stimulus per person, about $140.
Population of US;
about 300 million'
Wisconsin ail stimulus per person, about $2.70
Dean Weichmann (Fri Nov 19 18:18:22 2010)
Geez Dean, that's a great reason to build a train.
Jo (Fri Nov 19 22:01:54 2010)
Well Jo, your title kinda says that it is expensive. My post gives a sense of porportion. Cost is one factor. There are lots of pros and cons to this. You think it is better to give the $810M to others, I don't.
Dean Weichmann (Sat Nov 20 08:49:57 2010)
Such short-sighted folk we are; we we to to look long, use the Interstate right of way and build a meglev high-speed train, equivalent to the Japanese, Chinese models or better, we might have a start on something.
We went to the moon because we had a true dream. When we have leaders our Nation has no bounds and the time is nigh to become the Great land we are able to be.
For the moment, we must rebuild and maintain that we have and plan to create the dream we are capable of being, yet again.
Richard Parins (Sat Nov 20 22:31:17 2010)
With the focus on whether or not to spend $810 million now, no one is focusing on the practical concerns of train travel. Here are some other factors to consider:
- Train travel can be prohibitively expensive. A one-way ticket from La Crosse to Milwaukee costs, on average, $51 per person. An entire family can make the trip in a single vehicle for half that.
- Trains operate on schedules. Americans are conditioned by three generations of travel by car. We leave and arrive whenever we please.
- Trains are political animals, and succumb to the failings of jurisdiction. If a municipality wants a stop, and they are willing to pay for it, they will probably get one. That means one more 20 minute delay for anyone trying get from one side of the state to the other. Ideally a high-speed train would not have this problem, but get serious already.
- Once you get to the end of the tracks you still need to get to your destination. One of the major differences between Europeans and Americans is that Euros walk. Think Americans will be willing to walk a mile or two after getting off the train? Good luck. Oh, but we could take the bus…
- Europe has been resigned to train travel because its cities were not planned around roads or parking lots. Ours were. Americans are not forced to take the train, and the only way to change that is to make car travel much more expensive. This will be accomplished by a gas tax. On a cultural note, Americans are rarely won over by negative reinforcement. That’s the kind of thing that causes landslide elections.
- Trains are incredibly annoying. You cannot control who you share a car with, and you’re just likely than not to be in a car that smells bad or has out of control children and screaming babies, or people taking up more than one seat or coughing or talking too loud and generally being inconsiderate, or the bathrooms being disgusting and the food car being out of just about everything.
- Security is impossible. First of all, nobody has brought up the ominous prospect of installing and operating TSA-like security at every train depot. Imagine airport TSA issues times ten in terms of cost and manpower and logistics and delays. And don’t forget unions!
- It will be a simple matter for terrorists to walk up to any length of track in the middle of nowhere Wisconsin and put a bomb on the track and detonate it from the comfort of a sunny hillside and watch the speeding train pile into the surrounding fields and kill hundreds or more. If I have thought of this, trust me, terrorists already have stretches of track in mind. They’re just waiting for Obama to supply them with human targets.
- Our current infrastructure of freight track cannot handle so-called bullet trains. Trains that move at 300 mph need tremendous lengths of straight, flat track. The cost to get the United States up to French standards could be in the hundreds of billions of dollars.
- Finally, the current proposal creates a supply for which there is insufficient demand. If there were, Amtrak would be profitable, or at least break even. Americans enjoy the freedom of travel by car, and until that fundamental right is legislated away high speed rail will not be viable.
I’m sure there are many more considerations, including all the political infighting in every municipality the trains will travel through. I cannot imagine this thing ever getting beyond the planning phase, but I am certain the debate, now that it’s started, will never, ever, end.
EMC (Mon Nov 22 16:51:58 2010)
EMC, you are seriously suggesting that a train is an easier target than an airplane? For that matter how hard would it be to create distruction on a highway with cars and trucks moving at 70-80 mph? As an example look at Iraq, EMD's kill and maim more soldiers there than any other weapon.
>>>Train travel can be prohibitively expensive. A one-way ticket from La Crosse to Milwaukee costs, on average, $51 per person. An entire family can make the trip in a single vehicle for half that.<<<
For the gas. If that is the comparison then the train beats cars easily. Fuel efficiency is far better for trains.
>>>Once you get to the end of the tracks you still need to get to your destination. One of the major differences between Europeans and Americans is that Euros walk.<<<
Ya know, a little walking is a good thing.
Dean Weichmann (Mon Nov 22 22:12:02 2010)
I realized that I had a typo above, IED not EMD.
I was suprized at the extent of the cons listed by EMC, googled a phrase, here is the site EMC pasted it from and the pros.
- It’s nice to have someone else do the driving once in a while, especially when the distance is long. Anything over 2 hours can be tedious.
- Today’s Amtrak Passenger cars are relatively comfortable, if you can find a newer reclining seat.
- It is often nice to have restrooms and a food car available at all times without having to stop.
- Railways carve through some beautiful country you otherwise do not have a chance to see from a car or plane.
- Once a certain passenger threshold is met, trains are more environmentally friendly than other forms of transportation.
- Trains have the potential to get you from place to place very quickly. Some French trains can go 300 mph!
http://lote-tree.blogspot.com/2010/11/high-speed-rail-pros-cons.html
Dean Weichmann (Tue Nov 23 05:31:51 2010)
Dean, good detective work, you found my blog. You'll notice all my blog posts are also signed "EMC". By the way, Lote-Tree is also linked from this site! I hope more people stop by.
As to your counterpoints, I agree Americans could walk more, but should you be forced to walk due to lack of an acceptable alternative? I guess a liberal would say "Yes" to that.
As for efficiency, the train is only more efficient once a minimum threshold of passengers is met. But you did not directly challenge that it is less expensive for a family to drive than take the train, so I assume you cede the point.
And finally, yes, I am suggesting that a train is possibly the easiest target for a terrorist to kill a huge number of people with the smallest amount of effort and risk. If you're trying to say that because it hasn't happened then it won't happen you are being naive. That's the mode of thinking that enabled 9/11.
EMC (Wed Nov 24 16:09:43 2010)
>>>As to your counterpoints, I agree Americans could walk more, but should you be forced to walk due to lack of an acceptable alternative? I guess a liberal would say "Yes" to that.<<<
Why would you say that? As a general principal a liberal, at least this liberal, is in favor of allowing people as many options as possible. Walking is a good alternative but one result of a train station would be that taxi service would surely be available.
>>>As for efficiency, the train is... more efficient once a minimum threshold of passengers is met. But you did not directly challenge that it is less expensive for a family to drive than take the train, so I assume you cede the point.<<<
I do not cede, a car costs a lot more than the gas cost. How much do you pay for a car payment? A Hummer is what,$40K? at 5 years and 6% you pay about $800 a month. What about insurance? Maintenance,repairs?
It is almost impossible for one to avoid car ownership here because other alternatives are not available. I think that mass transit is a desirable alternative.
Dean Weichmann (Fri Nov 26 05:55:43 2010)
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